************************************************************************* This conference transcript is the exclusive property of the ST Advantage on DELPHI. Permission to reprint is granted only if this notice is included and the transcript is left unchanged. To get your own DELPHI account and join in on the many activities sponsored by the ST Advantage on DELPHI, dial 1-800-695-4002 with your modem, and hit once or twice. At the PASSWORD: prompt, enter COMPUTERFEST. DELPHI will step you through the process. ************************************************************************* This is a transcript of a formal Conference held Tuesday, January 7th, 1992. The focus of the Conference was software piracy, and its ramifications on the Atari community. .Gordie (ST Advantage sysop) > Well, as an introductory statement, let me say that the ST community is faced with a double dilemma. The two problems we face are a diminished market, which we won't go into tonight, and the stigma of the Atarian as rampant pirate. That one, we will discuss. I think, however, that most of us remaining in the ST community have grown in awareness as to just how piracy affects us, and don't involve ourselves as we once might have. I will admit to having pirated software, in my earlier years, and now, in retrospect, see what it cost me. There are very, very, few North American software companies that still support our platform. Some have moved their ST development overseas, where there is a bigger market. But with the small market (relative to the PC and Mac ones), we are hit even harder by what casual copying that does go on. Atari made a statement once upon a time about piracy... They said there were 3 levels of it. The most severe was the software counterfeiters, who take a program and essentially make a carbon-copy of it, selling it as if it were the real thing. That isn't a problem with the ST, as the market isn't large enough to support that level of involvement. The next level was that of the pirate bbs rings. That still goes on, and there is a distinct sociological pattern that exists within that subculture. Hopefully, we'll talk a little about that tonight, too. The last level, and probably the most destructive level, was that of casual copying. We're all familiar with it if we have been in a user group. One person gets a program, and passes copies along for their friends to 'evaluate'. Most people don't see it as being wrong, somehow, but it most definitely is. That attitude has probably caused the most harm to the ST market of any held by Atari users. The idea that your use of something, without compensating the author, is somehow not hurting the author. Well, it does. And it hurts us all, in the end. That's what I want to talk about tonight, and we have some people here who can hopefully shed a little insight into the whole thing. So, I'll open the floor for questions or comments. Anyone? .AP7> We need to be vigilant, but not vigilantes, righteous, but not self righteous, and be willing to "Call a spade a spade", so to speak. One function I want to personally get involved in is opening the closets so to speak, and cleaning house. Getting rid of the bats, if you will. A fundamental function of my proposed conference will be to literally teach, not only with programmers helping each other, but spreading understanding of what is involved in software production, the headaches and mindbending, if you will. .Gordie> AP7, education is most definitely what we need to do. If people don't know it's wrong, they won't stop doing it. .AP7> Education is a foundation from which behavior becomes possible. Behavior is learned, and many pirates simply know nothing about ethics. Sometimes it is that simple. .Hippie> How bad is piracy really... I see it more as the reason I can't run game from the hard drive due to pirates. ga .Gordie> This is where I wish Charles was here. He told me some interesting things about CodeHead products. They got more advance orders for the TEC board, which can't be pirated at all, than they've sold of any of their software products. That may indicate a significant piracy problem. And maybe not. Anyone have a comment? .GRM (Gordon R. Meyer, a developer) > Yes, another factor in that fact that many games can't be run from the hard drive is that it seems most companies develop for the minimal setup, a 520 or 1040ST at most. They might hesitate to spend any additional development or "support" for more advanced systems. ga .Gordie> Especially when ST sales are so abysmal. Some companies, however, do make their software HD installable. Quentin, you want to comment? MICROPROSE (represented by Quentin Chaney) > Hi Everyone... Our ST products are now developed by our UK office where HD's are basically non-existent. And as such now that they are developing mainly for the European community do not see the need, whether correct or not, for HD installable software for the Atari. ga .Gordie> That makes sense, Quentin. You have to develop for where the money is found. Simple business. John, you had a comment earlier? PENDZICH> How much software sales are really lost due to the pirates? Those who are into copying also copy movies, music etc. and would not buy any software if they could not copy it. ga .Gordie> Do any of you developers want to take a shot at this one? .CodeHead (represented by Charles F. Johnson) > That's one of those issues that's really impossible to quantize. Common sense tells us, though, that if the majority of the users can simply download something for free from a BBS, or get it from a friend, then it must affect sales at SOME point. ga DABRUMLEVE (Dorothy A. Brumleve, a developer) > Even people on tight budgets seem to come up with the cash for hardware. I'll bet they'd buy software too, if a free option weren't available. .Gordie> A lot of people managed to put together the bucks for the Happy enhancement. Probably more than the value of the software they copied with it. .Dana> I'd really like to know a couple of things What can be, and what is being done to put a dent in the problem. There are two problems... Lack of education, and pirate bulletin boards. We need to really educate people, not just cry about the problem. And I hate to sound like a vigillante, but pirate boards need to be eradicated to the point that people will be afraid to operate them. Comments? PENDZICH> Ma Bell may soon take care of BBS's entirely. MICROPROSE> It amazes me that I usually receive, through various BBS's and Customer Service, many messages about Pirate BBS boards with the comment always mentioning that " They paid for the game and they do not like the idea of someone else getting it for free." Although there are that many ST BBS's that I've come across, they do exist and in MicroProse's case we always try contacting the party and ask nicely for them to remove our software. 99 times out of 100 this works with no problems later down the line. The ones who act the "Pirate" are then turned over to the FBI and SPA... a last resort on our part. Rusty's and Edie's was a main problem for a while, but after being contacted by the FBI, quickly cleaned up their boards for all formats. Sometimes scare tactics are the only thing that do work, but most people just do it for the thrill of being a Pirate, I believe. ga .AP7> Education can work both ways. Action must be utilized, too. If the pirates can learn so much that they can, with impunity, copy anything and have their own BBS networks, why cannot we learn about it and STOP SELLING OR RENTING TO THEM! I can tell you two local names now that, if they were on a Blacklist, there'd be a big dent in Piracy. SPA is a joke, IMHO. Or, simply put, if the honorable among us really decide to dig our heels in, we can make a difference! ga .Gordie> For those of us in the ST community, the SPA isn't probably our best course of action. .GRM> Dave Small had a very interesting article or two in Current Notes a number of years ago regarding an unamed ST developer or two who had taken to releasing fake pirated software. This software would take revenge (somehow, use your imagination) on pirates. I seem to recall that Small rejected that approach as being unethical, but it is a _very_ interesting idea. As for the SPA, as part of my research on the Computer Underground I've tried, as a user, to contact them regarding pirate boards. They were less than interested, sadly to say, and the words "atari" never entered into our conversation. GA .Gordie> I had that feeling. We are one of the 'Other Computers' in their lists. .Dana> Well, I can understand that sugar is better, but people just aren't likely to stop if there's no fear involved. If there's any possibility of losing their systems, etc., they will be more likely to cease. If the SPA isn't the right "agency", can one be formed in the Atari community, or is there one already? .Gordie> I wonder if some pressure can be placed on the phone companies. They are deriving income from the calls, after all. .Dana> I don't think so, Gordie, unless the phone company AND FBI are involved together. DABRUMLEVE> Actually, when you hear about a pirate board going down, it's often because they had files on phone freaking and such. The phone company has friends in police organizations. .Gordie> If the phone companies were formally made aware that illegal activity was being conducted on their lines, wouldn't they share in the responsibility? .Dana> yes .Gordie> That may be the approach that needs to be taken. .GRM> I'm not a lawyer, but for the most part the main legal interest is civil, not criminal. When it comes to toll fraud, such as phreaking, the Secret Service is the agency it would fall under and they are having a hard enough time going after hackers, which are perceived as a threat, let alone pirates, which are not really considered "dangerous". ga .CodeHead> That's right, Gordon...official agencies only get interested when the dollars get large. I guess that's when it's "dangerous" enough for them. .GRM> Right Charles, unless you can convincly argue that "national defense" is at stake when it comes to piracy. Then they'd be interested. .AP7> We need people at a local level that will keep their eyes open and Speak Out. .Gordie> A Neighborhood Watch kind of thing? .AP7> I tried that, and practically was ostracized by the local Club. .Gordie> Sad. .AP7> Yes, Gordie, but we need Developers that will Do something, even if only write a letter on a company letterhead. Would you developers consider each writing one letter on your own letterheads. To a certain major Pirate locally, and informing him he has NO upgrade support anymore? DABRUMLEVE> I would write, but my software is rarely found on pirate boards. .AP7> That is not the point, WE ALL NEED TO WORK TOGETHER!!! DABRUMLEVE> Besides that, upgrade support isn't necessary for the board-runner. He can just get a new upload from one of his users. .AP7> We all gotta be in like glue, and sticky as honey, and tough. Pirates do not want to know that you know. Publicity is one thing they do not want or need. DABRUMLEVE> I think there's the ethical question about non-support of a valid user. If the guy has BOUGHT the program legitimately, we should follow through on support. .Gordie> True, if someone pays for the upgrade, they should get the upgrade. Now, if it were encoded with a tag, it might be interesting. .GRM> I agree with Dorothy, otherwise "lack of support" can become just one more justification for not paying for software in the first place. .AP7> Every program should be encrypted with the owners name, like NeoDesk. DABRUMLEVE> Nearly all software is encoded and can be traced. It's what you do with the info when you get it. PENDZICH> I've been Co-sysop on 5 boards since 80 and have had to delete (c) software from time to time. Almost always, they have included files that give names and phone numbers of bbs's etc. Why is this not evidence to prosecute? ga .Dana> Anyone can "doctor" a text file, that's why. .Gordie> True, we've seen it happen before. .Dana> Download listings, messages, etc. are essentially only a "clue". You need to literally check the system and find the stuff there. .GRM> My question of the developers here is this, have you found, to the extent that you care to let us know, that encoding the owners name in your products is effective? How so? Keeping honest people honest, or actually tracking illegal copies? GA PENDZICH> Just reminded me that at the last users group someone stole my floppy out of my system and got my "registered UIS and Quick ST" what are my recourses. Should I contact the publishers? ga .AP7> Yes!! .Dana> What do the developers recommend, that we as users, do to help? .CodeHead> Can I say one thing before I have to leave? .Gordie> Please do. .CodeHead> Unfortunately, folks, it all boils down to one thing software users have to police themselves. Most Atari companies simply don't have the resources to prosecute a civil case effectively, and the officials just aren't interested in small cases, which is how they perceive the Atari software scene. "Small-time." Them's the facts. So it comes down to each person making the decision, for him or herself not to steal software, not to destroy the fruits of others' labors, and instead to choose an ethical way of existing. Hope that wasn't too heavy, but it's true. I have to run along, folks, see you later. ga PENDZICH> The world would be a nice place if it was a nice place eh? .Gordie> Thanks, Charles. Sometimes the truth isn't very pretty. .AP7> Do we have the stomach, collectively, to use the mirror principle? Do we have the b*lls to tell a software pirate that we do not like what he is doing, and know what he is doing, and to RESIST? Do we take ourselves more seriously than the software pirates take us? And if we do, why aren't they taking the honest ones of us seriously? ga .Gordie> Gordon, did your research touch on that at all? .GRM> I agree with Charles' point about the users needing to police themselves, and doing the ethical thing. However I think you'll also find that the "officials" aren't interested in software piracy, at all, regardless of platform. You'll very rarely, if ever, hear of a heavy bust for software piracy at the pirate bbs/user group level. It's up to us, make that _you_, and we can't wait for the "officials" to step in and do something about it, we must do it ourselves. As for your question Gordie... Sometimes it is a matter of culture, the support for a pirate, in terms of culture, is fairly strong. As it takes a committment to enter a pirate bbs community (by not being a file leech, etc), it isn't something that one might be likely to just walk away from on a whim, or because somebody told them "you shouldn't do that". The nature of the bbs medium makes it easy, once the decision is made, to leave the community, but convincing the user that they should is the tough part. GA .Gordie> I think that's probably the essential point of it all. How do we convince users to 'go straight' and stop pirating. I think it's a matter of education, but even then, there will always be some who are incorrigible. .AP7> There is a saying that darkness flees light. It is my humble opinion that a lot could be done merely by openly and publicly facing the "problem". .Gordie> But only if the light is strong enough. If the threat of exposure doesn't carry any punishment, is it really a threat? .AP7> ...and I bet not a single pirate will have the b*lls to sue because I called him a pirate, if he knows that I have PROOF! .GRM> I would guess that the key is to approach this as a peer problem. The old folk wisdom about "peer pressure" has some basis in fact. .Gordie> I think it's far stronger than most realize. .AP7> Peer pressure, yes, but you all know, that "bad guys", no matter how tough, wanna be bad guys with other bad guys, not with the public in general. .GRM> But AP7, consider the ethics of how you obtain that "proof" as well. Pirate boards are private systems. .Gordie> AP7, my question is whether a pirate really cares about being branded as such. Within the pirate community, they will still have status. Perhaps even enhanced status because they took the heat. .GRM> Gordie - a substantial body of sociological/criminological work would say that comments from non-pirates (non peers) will have no affect. .AP7> If it is open to the public, what makes it sacrosanct? .AP7> Some will not [care about being branded a pirate], but I know for sure that one Club Secretary that sold me Calamus for $100 produced by the pirate was not too happy... I am willing to be a mole. I would be a double agent, if I knew it would help. .GRM> AP7 - you seem to be talking about the level of user group piracy, my ethics comment was directed at being a mole on private pirate boards. In order to obtain access you must provide pirated software in almost all cases. .AP7> And, yes a few diehards would be actually raised in their "status". But if enough stink was raised for long enough, perhaps said Pirate would make Inside Edition, and nationwide exposure. I would need to be working with a developer before I would be a mole or "double agent". Using an altered copy of a program that could be traced. Hopefully with a cleverly concealed self destruct button, activated by a pseudo virus. .Gordie> Let's try to maintain some sense of reality here. No law enforcement organization will be interested in spending the money necessary to run down an ST pirate. They just don't have the funds. Yes, it's a sad commentary on our system of criminal enforcement, but it's the reality none the less. .GRM> One thing that hasn't been mentioned is how focusing on piracy in the ST market may actually hurt things as much as the piracy itself by scaring away new developers and adding to the disgust of current ones. I doubt we really have it any worse, percentage wise, then other platforms. We're just such an "elite" (small) user base. .Gordie> There's a lot to be said for that comment, Gordon. How many new developers would be willing to risk their efforts to go into these so-called pirate infested waters? Not many, even if the allegations aren't true. .Gordie> Quentin, any comments on what MicroProse thinks? Or on what you personally think? MICROPROSE> MicroProse basically believes that it's up to each user to make the decision and realize that Piracy directly affects sales. And with no sales, no support for that platform. .Gordie> Would you say that higher prices are, in part, a product of piracy? MICROPROSE> I would have to say yes. As more time is needed to develop the code for some sort of protection as well as the testing involved. ga .Gordie> As well as affecting the return on the development investment. A software publisher needs to sell a certain number of copies to make back what they've spent in developing something. If that number is reduced due to piracy, then obviously the per copy price has to be higher, to make up the difference. ga MICROPROSE> Yes, the money from a product also pays for future projects and if there is no return on the previous game, then after awhile, that platform will have no more funds and personel will be assigned where the profit is. .Gordie> Sounds like we might all know of a platform that falls into that scenario. .Bob> Because of bad expereinces with certain (not Atari) software, I prefer to use backup copies of everything, but all of my Atari software is legal. Some manufacturers are not very cooperative about supplying backup copies when the original is OK, but I feel better with a backup. Comments? ga .Gordie> I imagine they see it as providing a 'pass along' copy, and don't want to make it too easy. ga .GRM> You're legally entitled to a backup copy, and I imagine most companies expect you to make one yourself rather than supply you with one. It's been a while since I've seen something that can't be backed up at all. GA .Bob> Yes, but I can't make copies of some of them. ga .Gordie> Dungeon Master being one, as an example. ga .GRM> Hmmm, I guess there are some that defy all copy programs. You're right, that's a tough boat to be in. Another factor here, and I'm not trying to be an apologist for the ST market, is that not all developers are giving me what I want to buy. I haven't bought but a couple games this year because I don't play games too much, and how many flight simulators do I need?! Thus, some software company is missing sales to an active ST supporter, me!, not due to piracy but due to not meeting my needs as a user. However, it probably looks like there aren't any ST users left so they don't bother with the innovative software that would attract my dollar. But sometimes I so want to see continued support for the ST that I'll feel like I should buy something I may not totally want just to encourage their efforts. Sort of silly, eh? GA .Bob> Same here. ga .Gordie> Not silly at all. I have that same inclination sometimes. But I'd like to send a signal to a domestic company, if possible, and they just don't exist. ga .GRM> I normally send the UK registration card to the US branch of the company and let them know they lost a sale by not supplying a US version. GA .Gordie> That's a nice touch. I'll have to try it. It's getting late, so I think I'll wind this up for tonight, if that's okay with everyone else. .GRM> It's been enjoyable, thanks for hosting Gordie! .Gordie> I know we haven't definitively covered the subject, but I think we made some good points, and hopefully, will stir up some discussion in the community at large. That said, this CO is officially ended! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Afterwards, several of us continued to chat, and the following comments were made concerning piracy via modem. "About 3 years ago a local user bought a referb'd USR 9600. He said that when he called any BBS that listed 9600, that the sysop would almost immediately come online and chat, asking if he operated a BBS. When he answered no, the sysop would upgrade him online and then point him to the d/l section. I saw file listings of unreleased games and other stuff 3 or 4 months before I would see them listed for sale in the magazines. The 9600 was the key to opening the door on the pirate BBSs a few years ago. At the same time, a local was running a FoReM BBS and he wrote a simple card game to run a door. After distributing this to several other BBSs, he was accepted into their pirate network. He would show me lists and disks with all kinds of goodies on them. So, I know how rampant software\ pirating is/was." I included that bit of commentary as a point of information. I do not mean to imply that everyone with a 9600 baud modem or bbs is a pirate. But it does point out that there is far more than casual copying going on, even now, with the ST market as diminished as it is. Perhaps the damage is done, and we will never recover from it. I certainly hope that isn't the case. But, I do know that we, each and every one of us, must make a committment to stop stealing software. It's not an especially difficult concept to understand. If you didn't buy it, and it wasn't a gift, it's stolen. Someone who spent a lot of time and effort creating it isn't being compensated for their work. That someone is a real person somewhere, probably a lot like yourself. Someone with bills to pay. Maybe a family to take care of. Someone who tried to get ahead in this world. And you have hurt that person. Piracy isn't something to be proud of. It's something to be ashamed of. Ongoing discussion of software piracy continues to be important. We, as honest ST users, must find a way to stop the dishonest from destroying what little we have left. The key is education. If you find your child has pirated software, you must educate him or her about why it's wrong. If you find a fellow ST user pirating software, you must educate him or her about why it's wrong. If you have pirated software, consider what you have done, and continue to do. Delete those files or format those disks. Buy the programs you really like, and get along without the rest. You'll feel better, knowing that you have done the right thing. And knowing that you've done your part in keeping the ST alive. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Editorial comments by Gordie Meyer . They are his comments and not necessarily those of DELPHI, The ST Advantage, his user group, nor anyone else, for that matter. But he hopes he's not alone. **************************************************************************